The DAV vs ASCAP

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 26 Sep 2002 4:26 am

I posted elsewhere about the Civil War on PBS and another of the scenes I thought was significant was when the last of the CW Vets were all gone. I was at the DAV last night and heard from a friend that ASCAP was taking them to court for thousands of dollars because the bands over the years had been playing "THEIR" songs.

I understand where they, ASCAP, are coming from and I suppose they have legal right (and might..) on their side. But also affecting the situation is that the membership is dying off, literally. There may only be 40 or 50 couples who frequent the club for dancing with a live band as they did when they were young and perhaps excercise as well. One could even say, they have earned this enjoyment by their serving for their country.

Now it too will be fading away into the sunset. There simply is no way they can continue to operate under ASCAP's rules and demands so they are going to close.

Strict DUI laws are the rule of the land and can be appreciated by everyone but they have stopped many a club from employing real people playing real music. It's a dying thing as we all know too well. Now I can appreciate DUI laws a lot better than folks from probably Nashville out in the country sucking the life blood out of bands and musicians.

Maybe Willie should start looking at his own "family" and see if he can help those of us who prefer live music. I might even imagine that he prefers it himself. But just like the family farm, local bands will be a thing of the past and the only happy thing about that is these people will have to look elsewhere for people to bleed. Perhaps they will go after the fans themselves before they too fade away.

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 26 September 2002 at 05:28 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Sep 2002 5:25 pm

Paul, my friend...do you mean D.A.V.? Sorry, I don't get the connection between the D.A.V. (Disabled American Veterans), and Civil War music, and A.S.C.A.P.!

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 28 Sep 2002 8:02 pm

Sorry, Donny !! That is quite a stretch isn't it. I always think of DAV the same way I think of the VFW; without periods after the letters. Yes the Disabled American Veterans was the club I was at and they are going to have to close.

These are the last group of soldiers ( Vets) from the WWII era or as Tom Browkaw called them; the Greatest Generation. For their efforts and contributions to our freedom, ASCAP is free to literally shut them down. I doubt if they (ASCAP) would ever imagine or see it in that light but there it is if you want to see it

The Civil War veterans had their music as well. I wonder what ASCAP would have called Sweet Lorena....public domain no doubt but it would have been on their chopping block as well. It reminds me of the protection gangs you used to hear about. You sign up for their protection or they take you out....

It just doesn't sit easy with me after having been there myself. Plus it does look as if they are singling out VFWs and DAVs.

I suppose I should add: IMHO.

Regards, Paul[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 28 September 2002 at 09:03 PM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 28 Sep 2002 8:44 pm

Paul, what ASCAP is doing is out-bloody-rageous! Have you tried calling the local paper or TV station? I don't think the public would stand for it. What does one have to do to fight back, break somebody's legs?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Sep 2002 11:09 pm

Sorry Dave...the radio and TV stations are owned by the same type of money-hungry fat cats that run ASCAP, as well as all the big recording companies. Everyone wants their "pound of flesh"...their chunk of the change.

Maybe good ol' b0b should add to his Forum header..."everything posted here is expressly copyrighted, and can not be reproduced in any form...etc., etc."

It's sickening! Next thing you know, they'll figure out a way to charge the preachers "performance royalties" when they recite from the bible to their congregation!

I can see it in the headlines now..."Heirs of King James' estate sue Billy Grahm for use of biblical quotes!"

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 28 Sep 2002 11:34 pm

Once ASCAP decides to go after someone they seem to play worse than the IRS.
I used to play at this club that the owner had a battle going on with ASCAP. They fined him for having a jukebox a radio and live bands and not paying into "THE FUND" so he took out the jukebox and radios and only would hire band to play 100% original nonpublished material. It actually became a great place to hear original bands play. But even years later ASCAP still kept sending people in to listen for copyrighted material. This was about seventeen years ago and they're probably still harassing him.
Yes I know that ASCAP is there to collect and distribute money for the songwriter, but with a small club with some band in the corner your talking about fractions of a penny per song while the record companies are steeling millions from them every day.[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 29 September 2002 at 12:36 AM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 29 Sep 2002 3:50 am

Perhaps someone could explain to me what the P in ASCAP stands for..... I always thought it was PERFORMERS. This connection seems dubious since they are putting performers, US, out of work.

Nothing is ever said about these PERFORMERS joining the Association, is it ?? I'd say there isn't enough DO re mi to make that worth their effort. They need a larger entity such as these clubs to pay their own salaries. And the hell with the consequences !

I'm sure there are members of ASCAP in this Forum. Perhaps one of them might say a word on their behalf. I'll hold my breathe while I wait for an explanation of why this happens and where the money goes. I would expect some SA to ask for my right to ask this question in the first place. Perhaps it is something I have not yet earned.....

Regards, Paul

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 29 Sep 2002 6:16 am

The "P" stands for "Publishers."

The organization's name is the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Sep 2002 10:09 am

Herb is right. The organization has nothing to do with singers, musicians, or audiences. They just like to collect money.

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 29 Sep 2002 6:33 pm

Back in the 70's we played a fairly large club where the business agents of BMI, ACSAP and Sesac all came in to demand their share.

Each demanded the greater part, saying they had the greater volume of music played.

The owner called them all together and said "Untill you decide among yourselves who gets what, and where your share belongs, I'm not giving you a nickel." He then escorted them out the door.

And that, as they say, was the end of that.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 30 Sep 2002 9:22 am

Oh, I see, if live music draws people in and helps the club make a profit, songwriters should just give them their work free of charge to make that profit? Then shouldn't the beer distributors give them the beer free, too, to help them make that profit? Oh, yeah, maybe they should ask for free rent, too.

If music/songs bring people in and creates income, there deserves to be a fee for using it. Or hire all-original bands (I think that's a great idea, anyway). Or if it's not worth anything, turn it off.

ASCAP/BMI/SESAC are non-profit organizations that administer copyrights for songwriters and publishers. They don't work for the labels, and the labels see 0% of the money they take in. TV and Radio pay a good chunk of their gross income to play these songs on the radio--they are not part of the organization.

By the way, this is just pure and simple Federal law--not something they are pulling over on somebody...

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 30 Sep 2002 9:32 am

Incidentally, my post was strictly for information only, offering the correct name of the organization. Just want to make that clear.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 30 Sep 2002 10:50 am

How on Earth do they decide who gets paid? It seems to me that even if an act played published but relatively obscure material, it would mean more money for the writers of the bigger hits. Let's say Lloyd Green and Don Helms did a set of Hank's material and the club payed the licensing agency X amount of dollars; how much of it would Hank's estate get? I wouldn't be surprised that Shania Twain got more of it, or Kid Rock even. Does Bob Wills' estate still get money from night club performances of San Antonio Rose? In principle, writers should be rewarded, but, in practice, this is a scam. And, even in principle, I cannot see denying Disabled American Veterans a modicum of entertainment as justified. Haven't they already paid dearly enough?

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 30 Sep 2002 5:11 pm

I fully support our Vets, and think this is an unfortunate situation, one that ASCAP would be smart to rectify. Sounds like bad press they don't need. I also don't know the full story. Kinda like when the restaurant association put out the press that ASCAP was suing the Boy Scouts over campfire playing of songs. Turns out it was a commercial campground that a Boy Scout troop happened to rent on occasion, and it had nothing to do with the Scouts. Irving Berlin, noted ASCAP member, had donated all his ASCAP royalties on some of his tunes to the Scouts years ago, but that was not reported.

As for the way royalties are distributed--it's not perfect, but it has to start somewhere...

By the way, churches are also subject to paying for modern church music (not public domain) via CCLI, another company that administrates Christian writers copyrights.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Sep 2002 6:03 pm

Dave, your post makes a lot of sense. I hope everyone reads it at least twice.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 30 Sep 2002 6:26 pm

John: As a publisher, is there any chance you could present your proposal that ASCAP back off from pressuring veterans clubs to the powers that may be ? Surely with this decaying population, there doesn't seem to be much of a future in it, if any and the good will would make up for any lost revenues they may or may not recoup. I personally doubt if there are many vets clubs that make profits similar to other types of facilities open to the public. I spent a year in Korea at about 150 dollars a month. It is not too much to ask and to borrow a phrase from Tom Hanks: It is time !!

And if estates deserve to earn off their deceased family gifts, how about something for those vets who didn't make it back home ?? Don't they have estate rights as well. Something is really wrong here. All gave some: Some gave all !! Billy Ray sang it better than I can say it.

Donny: I agree and I read it twice so I'd have it down pat. Thank you !!

Regards, Paul[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 30 September 2002 at 07:33 PM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 30 Sep 2002 6:38 pm

Paul, what's the name and address of the newspaper there? I'd like to write them a letter. I think they'd find it interesting.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 30 Sep 2002 7:01 pm

Dave: The local paper is a Knight-Ridder publication. I don't know if that's significant or not but I have nothing to do with them for personal reasons.

The Telegraph
PO Box 4167
Macon, GA 31206-4167

I'll watch it for awhile to see if it gets printed. Let me know if you send something.

Regards, Paul

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 30 Sep 2002 8:17 pm

Paul, I sent the following letter via email to the Macon Telegraph.
Dear Sirs:

I understand that the Disabled American Veterans club is being forced to discontinue their dances. ASCAP (the American Society of Composers, Artists and Publishers) is suing the club for thousands of dollars, claiming that the members have been dancing to their music without paying royalties. Is this true? If it is, it is an outrage. Most of these people are elderly and not wealthy. Is it right to deny them a modicum of entertainment? I’m talking about Disabled American Veterans, for God’s sake. Haven’t they paid dearly enough already?

David Birkett
Oxnard, California

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 1 Oct 2002 4:54 am

How many of us are "Life" members of the DAV? (meaning forum members)
Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona
[This message was edited by Ray Jenkins on 01 October 2002 at 05:54 AM.]

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 1 Oct 2002 6:53 am

I have spoken with ASCAP and given my opinion about exempting the DAV. I don't think it would hurt by having y'all email ASCAP, too. It's prety easy-- www.ascap.com.

THis in now way diminishes my views on copyright ownershoip, but the DAV sure deserves a "paid in full" status.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 1 Oct 2002 7:18 am

I agree with John, the original songwriters have the right to be compensated.....

......But, when the generation represented by the DAV is eliminated from the appreciation and enjoyment of the music referenced in the original post by Paul, the primary supporters will be lost and there will be no one to carry it on to another generation!....

If that music is to live beyond the lifetime of those who "were there" when it was popular.....some compromises must be made! www.genejones.com

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 1 Oct 2002 11:13 am

Gene: That was the connection I didn't make between Sweet Lorena/Civil War and the DAV predicament.
As you put it so well; that is why Sweet Lorena is still here with us today as if it were only yesterday and it's been 40 years since Sonny Garrish revivved it for our chosen voice, the pedal steel guitar.

Regards, Paul

Dave Smith · Post by **Dave Smith** » 2 Oct 2002 5:37 am

ASCAP could do the world a favor if they turned their attention to the karaoke practitioners and put them out of business. Karaoke is a bigger threat to live bands in our area than ASCAP and DUI laws combined.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Oct 2002 5:57 pm

the original songwriters have the right to be compensated.....

Well...arent they? Don't they make money from mechanical licenses when people (legally) record their stuff? Don't they get "airplay fees" from radio and TV stations? Aren't they also paid royalties equal to those the singer usually makes on hit records? No wonder every other person you run into in Nashville is a song writer!

While I can sympathize with publishers and the song writers themselves, I think charging (or trying to charge) for every single time someone sings a song is rather ludicrous. I can understand keeping tabs on big radio and TV stations, and big stars who sell hundreds of thousands to millons of CD's...these are the "mega-markets", and this is where the big money is. But to waste time hassling somebody "at the bottom of the food chain" seems a waste of time to me. And clearly, if they are doing this, then these are big organizations (money making businesses)...and not some little outfits concerned for moral justice for the starving songwriters of America. These guys sluggin' it out playin' and singin' in the bars aren't getting rich, and neither are most of the bar owners, lately! Also, the fact that BMI,ASCAP, etc., are "non-profit" organizations means nothing to me, really, unless their employees are all volunteers (which I seriously doubt). Everyone from weird religious groups to the U.S. government is non-profit, too. That doesn't guarantee things are done more justly, ethically, or efficiently in those "enterprises", does it?

I've been trying to come up with some sort of analogy for this "federal law" on public performance rights, and I honestly can't. It's a unique situation, for sure. Even software licensing isn't close to this, in practice. Now some will continue to say..."it's not a perfect system, but it's better than nothing!" For who? (For the guys makin' money, that's who!) If Zechariah Higgenfoop's song gets played, and someone else (like Shania or Garth) gets any of that money...where's the justice in that? You see, if their "system" is good only for some, and not for all...each and every single one, it's just like having laws that apply only to certain people. A step in the wrong direction is worse than no step at all. But of course, if this system's making someone wealthy, they (whomever) may not want to change it.

Right?

Clearly, something should be done...but what? Here's a suggestion, let's limit the "public performance" rights to only performances with more than 500 people in attendance. At venues with crowds less than that, are they really stealing anything from the writer? Could be that some of the people who listen might actually want a copy of the song, and then will go out and buy one! This would be beneficial for the writers, probably more beneficial than some dude collecting 10 cents per song per person per night, and then (after deducting those "operating expenses") dividing that up amongst 3000 writers (with the "unknown, but sometimes played" writers getting zilch).

Okay, so you writers and publshers and rights organizations don't want any part of that type of arrangement! You want to be paid for every single performance, in every single venue, by every single band in the country. Well, that's patently ridiculous. But, if that's the case, I might have no problem with that...as long as it's done totally equitably; as long as the most insignificant writer gets his check, too (for 10 cents when Sly-Melon Jones sings it once in a biker bar in Waxahatchie). When writers (and their assigns) go after singers and players, I think they're kinda "bitin' the hand that helps feed them".