The Dreaded 'Tone Suck'

[Brandon Bankes]

Hey all -- I've been experimenting with signal chain lately, and no doubt the best sound is the guitar straight into the amp with nothing in between. As soon as I add the volume pedal (old Emmons pot pedal or even the Hilton) the magic goes away. I've tried a tuner infront of the VP and it still alters the sound.

I do a ton of recording and session work, so perhaps I'm more in tune with this than most, but I simply just want my guitar to sound like my guitar! I know some like that the VP colors the sound a bit, but I'm looking for a true transparent sound.

Is this possible with another pedal (like the Telonics) or piece of impedance matching equipment I'm not aware of? I do have the Hilton pedal, which I thought took care of this, but even that alters the tone.

[Jerry Overstreet]

If either a volume pedal with a good 500K pot or a Hilton is deteriorating your sound, there's something wrong with either. Neither of these pedals in good condition will suck tone. My guess is that the problem is in your connecting cables. Try Geo. L's or other similar cables....maybe a buffering device like the Match Box or Freeloader.

The thing about a pot pedal is that is at it's best when toward wide open, so maybe need to adjust the other electronics to allow for that.

I've not used a Telonics pedal but I'll bet diamonds to donuts that it won't be any different than the Hilton, providing the conditions of your existing pedals I've stated before are prevalent.

[Greg Cutshaw]

I do a fair amount of recording. Most all the pedal steel guitar you hear anywhere has been played or recorded with some type of volume pedal whether active or passive. In either case you are not hearing the raw guitar sound but the signal as affected of the volume pedal, a few cables and whatever preamp, effects, recording equipment and mastering that gets done. I've never seen a setup that couldn''t sound good with the "right" volume pedal, chords and whatever signal chain a user prefers use.

Here's a song recorded with my Goodrich pot pedal, Fender Steel King amp, a 12' George L's cord (a bit long to cut back the high frequencies a bit), HOF reverb
set on "church", Shure SM-57 mic (mono) into a Zoom R24, wav file ported to Reaper and mastered with a bit of stereo reverb:

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/Samples/Red%20Wing.mp3

[Glenn Demichele]

Which guitar Greg?

[Tommy Boswell]

Here's a dummy question that occurred to me while reading this thread (ok to call me a dummy, that is). Is there any such thing as an amplifier with a volume pedal patch that effects only the final stage power section of the amplifier (not the preamp)? And would that solve the problem?

[Greg Cutshaw]

Which guitar Greg?

Excel S12 with changeover switch and stock pickup:

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012% ... yless.html

[Dennis Detweiler]

What Tommy said. Plus add a Matchbox or Freeloader.

[Dave Grafe]

Here's a dummy question that occurred to me while reading this thread (ok to call me a dummy, that is). Is there any such thing as an amplifier with a volume pedal patch that effects only the final stage power section of the amplifier (not the preamp)? And would that solve the problem?

Some folks run their VP in the amp effects loop, which is what you are describing. This is especially effective with active volume pedals.

[Tommy Boswell]

Thanks Dave, I may try patching the volume pedal between my Furlong Sesh.400 (preamp) and the power amp.

[Marco Schouten]

Some amps allow for a 3 wire setup: guitar to amp, volume out from amp tp volume pedal, and than from volume pedal to volume in on the amp. The Quilter Steelaire can do it, but there are other amps as well.

[Brad Sarno]

I would definitely disagree that the pickup to amp tone is "best". It may be hottest and brightest, but that's not the glorious steel guitar tone so many of us fell in love with. Most amp inputs are generally 1 Meg Ohm, and that makes a steel guitar pickup TOO bright, TOO harsh. Pickups are designed generally to see loads in the 300k to 500k range, that's where the pickups have their intended tone. This "tone suck" you observe is actually taking a harsh and overly bright tone and warming it, darkening it to more of the sweet spot. Many with adjustable impedance have found that taking the impedance load even further down in the 150k-300k Ohm range is the real spot. In Buddy Emmons' and John Hughey's last decade of playing, they too found this tone "sweet spot" for themselves.

The most beloved and glorious steel guitar tones have already been captured and much of it was in the 60's and '70s. That sound of the greats that made us fall in love with the pedal steel guitar was almost entirely done with a steel guitar into a 500k pot pedal into a tube amplifier. The human ear and heart seems to love that sound and still to this day revere it as the gold standard.

If you want to nail your pickup-to-amp tone but also use a volume pedal, definitely consider a buffer device to go right after the guitar and look for one that will get you that same high impedance you like with the direct-to-amp tone, likely something above 500k and likely 1 Meg Ohm. That will capture the sound right out of the gate, and then a pot pedal will likely help you keep that sound uncolored as you change volume with it. If you really wanna do this right, find the right buffer device up front and then put a 25k or 50k pot in the volume pedal. That will really make sure the pot pedal won't affect your tone as it moves. This approach includes the 3-wire approach, but some amp inputs like Peavey's will have a LOW input impedance and will definitely darken the tone compared to other amps. I think Peavey was very smart in their approach to the 3-wire hookup because of the tone-warming that comes from their low impedance input that the pickup sees.

B

[Fred]

An adjustable impedance buffer makes all the difference. The Sarno Freeloader is small, light, fairly inexpensive and a 9 volt battery lasts a long time. The Sarno Black Box is great if you want the sound of a tube being the first thing your signal sees. It's bigger and heavier and needs to be plugged into the wall. I like it a bit more than the Freeloader, but am happy using either one.

[Dave Stagner]

I like the Freeloader, too. I also use it for an in-the-moment tone control to match a room or stage. I dial in my amp (Milkman The Amp 100) to match the Freeloader at about 5, and then I can turn the Vari-Z up or down for a brighter or darker tone as needed, without changing the fundamental character. I’ve found guitar-oriented buffers make things too bright, and most distort under the intense output of a steel pickup. The volume pedal after the Freeloader has virtually no effect on the tone.

[Bob Hoffnar]

I used a Goodrich Matchbox for that issue years ago. It seemed to do something at the time. I sorta changed my attitude about getting a good tone over the years from everything gets in the way of purity to an everything works together and contributes thing. If I was concerned with purity I would very carefully experiment with what Brad Sarno says.

You play and sound fantastic BTW. So keep us posted on whatever you come up with.

[Bob Hoffnar]

I want to add that when you do your tone experiments make sure you match gain properly. I use the DB meter in my monitor controller and also an app call NIOSH in my phone. Even an imperceptible volume difference of 1 db can give you that blanket over the amp reaction.

[Donny Hinson]

Always use the shortest cables possible. The less wire between the pickup and amplifier, and the fewer devices in the signal chain, the more transparent the sound. But usually, most of the "magic" that goes away can be restored by simply turning up the treble on the amp.

In reality, it's the high-impedance PSG pickups in combination with a pot that causes most of the "tone suck" problem. Notice that there are volume pots on all Telecasters, and there's seldom a problem of highs being lacking on a Tele!