B11 for 6-string?

[Chris Tulloch]

Having finished building my 7-string (tuned to A6) I wanted to try something different for my first construction job, a 6-string from a year or two back, which is now lying around unused! I already have another (East German) 6-steel tuned to Open D, and yet another (Selmer) tuned to C6 … so I took the remaining (A6) 6-string down to B11.

However I have become aware that B11 is really an 8-string tuning to get all that this tuning can offer.

Any ideas? I’m still working on mastering A6 and Open D, but it would be nice to have some different tuning to play around with in odd moments when I feel like going off at a tangent!

[Chris Tulloch]

BTW … here’s the one I’ve recently made! (photo taken while still working out string gauges)

[Tom Campbell]

I've played a B11 using (low to high) B D# F# A C# E. Ideally there should be C# between the B and the D#...but I found its absence to be not that noticeable.
Gorgeous looking guitar!!!

[Nic Neufeld]

I usually use an 8 string for B11 but based on the notes in the tuning, I think 6 string would work just fine. My version of B11 is the Jules Ah See one. Basically it is low to high 1-5-1-3-5-b7-9-11. The low root/fifth on the bottom makes for some huge sounding chords, for sure, but the meat of the tuning is in the upper strings and you could absolutely use a 1-3-5-b7-9-11 version.

My take on this tuning is that it is a "split" tuning" and you can approach it like A6 on the top four strings (where most people play the melodies) and B7th/9th on the low strings (bottom 4/5 strings...only rarely are people actually wanting to play the full 11th chord). So the only thing you lose with doing this on a 6 string is the extra "oomph" of the low two strings that just reinforce the 7th/9th chords.

I think Jerry Byrd had a different version that might be better with 8 string because it does some closer-to-diatonic stuff down low: b7-1-9-3-5-b7-9-11

Those bottom four strings are all just 1 step apart. And you'd have to decide what to give up for a 6 string tuning...but the Jules version, much less of a problem, just shave off the low two strings because they are only adding emphasis and range really, not anything new for chordal options.

Plus its a super easy retune from A6.

Just my 2c!

[Paul Seager]

I've always thought of B11 as a 6 string tuning. One can extend it as one wishes to cover more chord voicings on an 8 string.

Andy Volk of this forum offers a great song book for B11 on 6 strings. Great resource!

[Bill Groner]

Very nice build. Love the grain pattern on the body! First class build Mate. I see you are from the UK......is that English Walnut? What is the chrome do hickey along the treble side of the bridge?

[Chris Tulloch]

Very nice build. Love the grain pattern on the body! First class build Mate. I see you are from the UK......is that English Walnut? What is the chrome do hickey along treble side of the bridge?

Thanks Bill. It’s Sapele … I went into my local woodyard & it was there .. the right thickness & width. The chrome-thing is a toggle-switch for humbucker-single coil. It’s a bit of a subtle change! The small knob (Duesenberg) is volume and the large operates a Duesenberg Speed-Pot which gives me a bit of “boo-wah”. I tried every cap size and ended back at .22

Walnut? I DO have a lovely piece of Walnut which will be my next build; last year I acquired a Selmer Gold-tone where someone had jig-saw’d down one side (I suspect for a large belly!). It needs to be re-bodied & I’ll turn it into a shapely Selmer Hawaiian.

[Chris Tulloch]

I've played a B11 using (low to high) B D# F# A C# E. Ideally there should be C# between the B and the D#...but I found its absence to be not that noticeable.
Gorgeous looking guitar!!!

Thanks Tom .. yes, this tuning is what I have. A nice side-door into other styles, I shall enjoy exploring.

[Chris Tulloch]

I've always thought of B11 as a 6 string tuning. One can extend it as one wishes to cover more chord voicings on an 8 string.

Andy Volk of this forum offers a great song book for B11 on 6 strings. Great resource!

Thanks Paul. I’m inspired to go further!

[Chris Tulloch]

I usually use an 8 string for B11 but based on the notes in the tuning, I think 6 string would work just fine. My version of B11 is the Jules Ah See one. Basically it is low to high 1-5-1-3-5-b7-9-11. The low root/fifth on the bottom makes for some huge sounding chords, for sure, but the meat of the tuning is in the upper strings and you could absolutely use a 1-3-5-b7-9-11 version.

My take on this tuning is that it is a "split" tuning" and you can approach it like A6 on the top four strings (where most people play the melodies) and B7th/9th on the low strings (bottom 4/5 strings...only rarely are people actually wanting to play the full 11th chord). So the only thing you lose with doing this on a 6 string is the extra "oomph" of the low two strings that just reinforce the 7th/9th chords.

I think Jerry Byrd had a different version that might be better with 8 string because it does some closer-to-diatonic stuff down low: b7-1-9-3-5-b7-9-11

Those bottom four strings are all just 1 step apart. And you'd have to decide what to give up for a 6 string tuning...but the Jules version, much less of a problem, just shave off the low two strings because they are only adding emphasis and range really, not anything new for chordal options.

Plus its a super easy retune from A6.

Just my 2c!

Thanks Nic. I think I have the standard B11 tuning. I’m starting to find it very tempting for the 7-string, but as I sit in on other musicians’ set-lists I shall have to see whether it’s adaptable for all those uses. Thanks for your suggestions.

[Michael Kiese]

However I have become aware that B11 is really an 8-string tuning to get all that this tuning can offer.

Any ideas? I’m still working on mastering A6 and Open D, but it would be nice to have some different tuning to play around with in odd moments when I feel like going off at a tangent!

Aloha Chris,

Just my 2¢, take with grain of salt...

Bottomline, I wouldn't worry about needing to "master" 8 string B11. 6 string B11 is really all you need.

6-string B11 vs 8-String B11. 6-string B11 has A LOT to offer. The point is to make music that moves people (both you and the audience). Anything more than that is purely an intellectual pursuit.

When I was making my first breakthroughs on steel, I told Bobby Ingano "Hey Uncle Bobby...I'm noticing that when playing Hawaiian music, you really only need the top 3 strings, MAYBE the top 4 max." and he went "THAT's EXACTLY RIGHT!" Lol. He went on to say that even Feet Rogers said similar things. So I got a vote of confidence that I was on the right track.

I'm happy to play 6 string steel guitars, and can get a lot on them. 6 String steels allow you to focus on the music, and playing *just enough*. Not too little. Not too much.

I have 7 and 8 string steels as well. I'm comfortable playing them. But the only issue is that since those extra strings are there, you want to use them. LOL. That can lead to over playing, or stepping on the Bass player's toes, which is not cool.

I only add strings when there are certain licks/passages that are easier to play with extra strings. For example, if I'm working on some Doug Jernigan lessons and Jazz improv, I'll need the 8 string. I don't add strings as an exercise solely to challenge myself by adding complexity. Music is complex enough as it is. Chords and sounds wear many "masks" because there is so much overlap in music theory. I try not to work any harder than is absolutely necessary.

At the end of the day, I see B11 as an easy way to get Dominant 7 sounds within 2 fret pockets. Your Major chord home position is the top 3 strings of whatever fret you're at, and the dominant 7 version of the same chord is 2 frets behind that.

All the pretty Hawaiian songs in B11 (especially Sand) exploit that phenomenon all over the place.

To me, B11 really is A6 with some added Dominant 7 benefits. B11 is trade-off. It gives up single line improvisation of A6 but gains pretty chord melody strumming.

Which brings me back to the bottomline: 8 string B11 is not necessary to "master".

In his 80's Jerry Byrd was long-settled on a double neck console steel of a 6 string and 7 string neck. He'd tune the 6 string to whatever he needed, and the 7 string was always in C diatonic.

Nobody chased more tuning rabbit holes than Jerry, and that's what he settled on. Simplicity works.

Again, just my 2¢. There is no right or wrong in this stuff.

Enjoy!

[Bill Groner]

Very nice build. Love the grain pattern on the body! First class build Mate. I see you are from the UK......is that English Walnut? What is the chrome do hickey along treble side of the bridge?

Thanks Bill. It’s Sapele … I went into my local woodyard & it was there .. the right thickness & width. The chrome-thing is a toggle-switch for humbucker-single coil. It’s a bit of a subtle change! The small knob (Duesenberg) is volume and the large operates a Duesenberg Speed-Pot which gives me a bit of “boo-wah”. I tried every cap size and ended back at .22

Walnut? I DO have a lovely piece of Walnut which will be my next build; last year I acquired a Selmer Gold-tone where someone had jig-saw’d down one side (I suspect for a large belly!). It needs to be re-bodied & I’ll turn it into a shapely Selmer Hawaiian.

Thanks for the info............beautiful work Chris! Where about in England are you? PM me if you don't want to post. Ancestors came over late 1800's. I'd like to visit and see where my roots are someday. Grandmum was from Ash Burton.

[Rick Aiello]

I always just thought of it as an A6 variant … stacks of thirds … each set of adjacent strings is a minor or major third. … easy to harmonize …. Nice for strumming too

5 (E)

m3

3 (C#)

M3

1 (A)

m3

6 (F#)

m3

5b (D#)

M3

2. (B)

[Chris Tulloch]

However I have become aware that B11 is really an 8-string tuning to get all that this tuning can offer.

Any ideas? I’m still working on mastering A6 and Open D, but it would be nice to have some different tuning to play around with in odd moments when I feel like going off at a tangent!

Aloha Chris,

Just my 2¢, take with grain of salt...

Bottomline, I wouldn't worry about needing to "master" 8 string B11. 6 string B11 is really all you need.

6-string B11 vs 8-String B11. 6-string B11 has A LOT to offer. The point is to make music that moves people (both you and the audience). Anything more than that is purely an intellectual pursuit.

When I was making my first breakthroughs on steel, I told Bobby Ingano "Hey Uncle Bobby...I'm noticing that when playing Hawaiian music, you really only need the top 3 strings, MAYBE the top 4 max." and he went "THAT's EXACTLY RIGHT!" Lol. He went on to say that even Feet Rogers said similar things. So I got a vote of confidence that I was on the right track.

I'm happy to play 6 string steel guitars, and can get a lot on them. 6 String steels allow you to focus on the music, and playing *just enough*. Not too little. Not too much.

I have 7 and 8 string steels as well. I'm comfortable playing them. But the only issue is that since those extra strings are there, you want to use them. LOL. That can lead to over playing, or stepping on the Bass player's toes, which is not cool.

I only add strings when there are certain licks/passages that are easier to play with extra strings. For example, if I'm working on some Doug Jernigan lessons and Jazz improv, I'll need the 8 string. I don't add strings as an exercise solely to challenge myself by adding complexity. Music is complex enough as it is. Chords and sounds wear many "masks" because there is so much overlap in music theory. I try not to work any harder than is absolutely necessary.

At the end of the day, I see B11 as an easy way to get Dominant 7 sounds within 2 fret pockets. Your Major chord home position is the top 3 strings of whatever fret you're at, and the dominant 7 version of the same chord is 2 frets behind that.

All the pretty Hawaiian songs in B11 (especially Sand) exploit that phenomenon all over the place.

To me, B11 really is A6 with some added Dominant 7 benefits. B11 is trade-off. It gives up single line improvisation of A6 but gains pretty chord melody strumming.

Which brings me back to the bottomline: 8 string B11 is not necessary to "master".

In his 80's Jerry Byrd was long-settled on a double neck console steel of a 6 string and 7 string neck. He'd tune the 6 string to whatever he needed, and the 7 string was always in C diatonic.

Nobody chased more tuning rabbit holes than Jerry, and that's what he settled on. Simplicity works.

Again, just my 2¢. There is no right or wrong in this stuff.

Enjoy!

Brilliant, thanks Michael. A lot of background info there; I shall research!

[Chris Tulloch]

I always just thought of it as an A6 variant … stacks of thirds … each set of adjacent strings is a minor or major third. … easy to harmonize …. Nice for strumming too

5 (E)

m3

3 (C#)

M3

1 (A)

m3

6 (F#)

m3

5b (D#)

M3

2. (B)

Thanks Rick. I shall enjoy exploring!

[David DeLoach]

Check out Doug Beaumier's MOONTIDE in B11 on a 6 string (tuned B D# F# A C# E). One of my all time favorite lap steel songs/sounds.

https://youtu.be/w6KQC3A2t60?si=f8gf17MeDwH867xm

Doug has posted the TAB and backing track here --> http://playsteelguitar.com/moontide-video-tablature/

[Glenn Wilde]

I really like B11 on one of my sixes, it's most of the A6 I have on my eight and just different enough to keep it interesting. I do want to get me a 7 string one day though.

[Chris Tulloch]

Check out Doug Beaumier's MOONTIDE in B11 on a 6 string (tuned B D# F# A C# E). One of my all time favorite lap steel songs/sounds.

https://youtu.be/w6KQC3A2t60?si=f8gf17MeDwH867xm

Doug has posted the TAB and backing track here --> http://playsteelguitar.com/moontide-video-tablature/

Exquisite! Thanks David, I’ll have a go at that.

[Andy Volk]

B11.png

I sometimes use C# on string 6.

Link to B11th Book:

https://www.volkmediabooks.com/products ... oduct-only

[Nic Neufeld]

But the only issue is that since those extra strings are there, you want to use them. LOL. That can lead to over playing, or stepping on the Bass player's toes, which is not cool.

Agree on this...it totally depends on the group you have. When I have a bass player you can easily add too much mud with low 8 string chord strums, and with larger groups I tend to reduce chords and stay more "single note" or double stop. In a group with just an archtop rhythm guitar, I had a lot more room to "fill up the sound" with fuller, lush sounding stuff.

Case in point using the same player...
Jules Ah See playing with a fairly sedate and low mixed backing group...playing in B11 and using lots of rich full chords:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRvUIVw2ts

Jules Ah See playing with a livelier band (Hawaiian Village Serenaders), (I think?) also in B11:
https://archive.org/details/TapaRoomTap ... Heaven.m4a

The latter you don't hear a lot of low string work. It was on an 8 string Magnatone, but it could have been played on a six easily.

[Michael Kiese]

But the only issue is that since those extra strings are there, you want to use them. LOL. That can lead to over playing, or stepping on the Bass player's toes, which is not cool.

Agree on this...it totally depends on the group you have. When I have a bass player you can easily add too much mud with low 8 string chord strums, and with larger groups I tend to reduce chords and stay more "single note" or double stop. In a group with just an archtop rhythm guitar, I had a lot more room to "fill up the sound" with fuller, lush sounding stuff.

Case in point using the same player...
Jules Ah See playing with a fairly sedate and low mixed backing group...playing in B11 and using lots of rich full chords:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRvUIVw2ts

Jules Ah See playing with a livelier band (Hawaiian Village Serenaders), (I think?) also in B11:
https://archive.org/details/TapaRoomTap ... Heaven.m4a

The latter you don't hear a lot of low string work. It was on an 8 string Magnatone, but it could have been played on a six easily.

Aloha Nic,

Really great examples! I listened to the YouTube recording of Jules playing Sand a bunch of times back to back. Thank you for that offering! I'm very familiar with the Tapa Room Tapes, which are great historical recordings. You can tell that they had a lot of fun! I can't imagine what it was like being in the golden age of Hawai'i and having a gig like that. Must have been awesome.

Obviously, I'm going to give Jules his propers and acknowledge his great playing.

That said, I am going give my personal 2¢ on his musical choices on Sand. His playing is great, but some of his musical choices are questionable.

He steps all over the Bass player's toes. Not cool. It happens right at the 8 second mark.

In my personal opinion, if there is a Bass player in a band, then all instruments really need to stay OUT of the lowest 2 octaves of the piano. That's bass player territory.

Piano players are NOTORIOUS for stepping on Bass player's toes, because they have all 8 octaves easily available on their instrument. Just don't do it. It's funny because even good piano players do it a lot. They can't help it; they're used to playing that way. It's a conscious choice of etiquette and courtesy to make space for the Bass player.

The Bass player has a fundamental function in music. It's also a noble pursuit because they have to maintain a batting average of 900-950 on always knowing where they are in the form of the song. Everybody else in the band has the luxury of getting lost in the form and then finding themselves, but if the Bass player gets lost, the audience immediately knows it. If the bass player doesn't play a note on the downbeat of 1, it just sounds like the whole band got lost.

At the same time, Bass players are never in the spotlight. So you have a person who is humbly dedicating themselves to support the rest of the band while never getting the spotlight, and they're dedicating all their focus on the bass line. It's just courteous to stay out of their way.

Even the great Kayton Roberts steps on Bass player's toes. He was funny and a cut up on stage. There videos of him playing on YouTube where he literally walks a bass line on steel right over the bass player who is walking a bass line. He gets away with it because he's funny, but it's still inconsiderate to the bass player.

At the end of the day, there are no rules. That said etiquette exists for a reason. There's no rule that you can't play in the Bass player's range. Just like there is no rule that you have to hold the door open in public for someone who is right behind you. But you do it, because it's courteous and thoughtful.

All things considered, it's just a matter of etiquette and courtesy. You can fit 8 people on a ladder, they just can't all be on the same rung. The bottom 2 rungs belong to the bass player. That's just how it goes. That's what their instrument was designed for. Their instrument by design can't go much past the 3rd rung.

I do agree with you that if there is no Bass player, like your example of playing in a duo of Steel and Rhythm guitar, then go ahead and take up those 2 lowest octaves on piano. Those rungs aren't occupied by anybody in that scenario.

Great discussion! I enjoyed it.

Cheers.