Playing in tune

[Jim Palenscar]

This is not about how one elects to tune- there are myriads of tuning methods that most of us are aware of. I’ve been playing pedal steel for 52 years and have given hundreds of lessons always telling students to put a tuner in line so they can see if their bar is where they think it is. Especially in the beginning where there seems to be so much going on- pushing this pedal or lever, moving the bar to a new position, getting the volume and timing right, etc that it is tough to also listen for proper intonation. It is a humbling experience when one has to eat his/her own words. I heard the band I’ve played with for a number of years on a YouTube video the other day and cringed at couple of times at my own intonation. Granted we play quite loud at times and I have the lead player’s extension speaker right next to me so that I can hear him as he sits across the stage from me. I was musing about “do as I say- not as I do” and thinking about how to fix this problem and realized that my Peterson programmable tuner(love it!) was off to the side and I really couldn’t put it in front of me because of it’s size so went in search of the smallest in-line tuner that I could find as clip-ons rarely are useful with a pedal steel. I found this one- a RockStock, ordered it and now couldn’t be happier although it is not programmable. Not only will it teach you where you need to be on the fretboard when looking at it it but will allow you to fix problems on the fly. I used it yesterday in a recording session and was able to fix any intonation issues on the fly. I think it only cost about $60 from Amazon and I highly recommend it.

[Jim Pitman]

Hi Jim. Great post. Can you comment on the resolution. I don;t care for some of the Snark like products that seem to be poorly resolved.
Is that an Infinity U12 I see there?
I've got one of those. Couldn't be happier with it.
Will you be at the TSGA show this year?

[Jim Palenscar]

Hi Jim. So far the resolution seems to be reasonable and I was happy w the latest recording I did. It is an Infinity and I hope to be at Dallas and get together!

[Garry Vanderlinde]

Thanks for the tip! This little tuner just might help. The problem I have is that in the moment of performing I think I'm in tune and sounding great, but when I hear a playback recording it sounds off and I can't really tell if I'm flat or sharp.

[Fred Treece]

Thanks, that does look like a useful gadget.

I was doing a unison intro with a mandolin player on a very sweet ballad one time, after I had just started playing steel. After a couple of notes I realized one of us was desperately out of tune so I stopped playing. I checked my tuning and everything was normal. On break the mando player approached me about it, so we tried to play the intro again and it was sour as a green lemon. His tuning was right on. When I moved my bar up a hair we were good.

That was my wake up call to practice with a tuner in line, practice with drone notes, and practice with one-chord grooves up and down the neck.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Playing in tune can be hard to get right. I think part of the problem is many electronic units, Amps, Stomp boxes, Keyboards and such, Varies pitch with the house voltage.

I played with a band for about 3 years, Had a keyboard player in the band. We usually were on stage side by side. From one gig to another, I would let my ear take my bar to tune with the keyboard. Some locations, I would be near 1/4" in front of the fret. Some locations could not pick any strings open, They sounded out of tune to my ear.
At one time a local club, Many bands had trouble with sound in it. An appliance repair man found, They had 140 volt house voltage. The power company replaced the pole transformer. Solved the bands tuning problems.
Many locations bands play, Food is served. Electric appliance thermostats kicking in and out can affect tuning. Especially deep fryers, Electric stoves and hot water tanks.

[Lee Rider]

My hearing is pretty bad, hard to get intonation so I have to do it visually much of the time. I use a small tablet computer with the Soundcourset app that tracks your intonation graphically. Nice thing is it tracks for several seconds so you don't have to look at it all of the time, just glance up to see how the intonation is tracking.

[Kevin Hatton]

Does it show cents/hertz?

[Lee Rider]

Does it show cents/hertz?

Yes, cents. The app has a colored range of +10 to -10 cents where I try to stay in my "lane"....

[Don R Brown]

My hearing is pretty bad, hard to get intonation so I have to do it visually much of the time. I use a small tablet computer with the Soundcourset app that tracks your intonation graphically. Nice thing is it tracks for several seconds so you don't have to look at it all of the time, just glance up to see how the intonation is tracking.

Interesting, Lee! I had too many years of train horns, race car motors and loud music and I don't have the sharpest hearing any more. What you suggest (it's "Soundcorset", without a "u") might be helpful! Looks like it can be displayed either vertically or horizontally.

tuner_horizontal.png

[Lee Rider]

My hearing is pretty bad, hard to get intonation so I have to do it visually much of the time. I use a small tablet computer with the Soundcourset app that tracks your intonation graphically. Nice thing is it tracks for several seconds so you don't have to look at it all of the time, just glance up to see how the intonation is tracking.

Interesting, Lee! I had too many years of train horns, race car motors and loud music and I don't have the sharpest hearing any more. What you suggest (it's "Soundcorset", without a "u") might be helpful! Looks like it can be displayed either vertically or horizontally.



tuner_horizontal.png

Thanks Don. I was in swimming pool construction for 40 years so I got my share of gunite trucks and heavy equipment to damage my hearing. Just playing acoustic guitar in the band now so hearing and intonation is not really an issue (unless I get lost somehow and have to find the "1").

[Jim Palenscar]

I sing in the band and use an IPad to keep me on track. I was hoping that I could find an app that I could have on the IPad but simply have it in a tiny corner but the apps that I have took up 1/2 the screen and I couldn't figure out how to make them smaller which was unacceptable.

[Larry Allen]

Old school works for me since Peterson showed up at the St Louis convention..

[Donny Hinson]

I'll start off with saying that I am really against this sort of thing (looking at a tuner to see if you're playing in tune). As a sideman, we're supposed to be in tune with the band, and I don't think there's any better way to do that than listening to the band and utilizing your ears and your brain to find the tonal center of the music. It's important to realize that the tonal center may vary with different players or singers, songs that are in different keys, and the generalized changes that may take place in normal playing, and that's the problem if you're in sync with a tuner, and not with the musicians around you! Of course, if you're in a band with keyboards, the tonal center will likely be more rigid than it is if there are only string instruments. But I feel you must be able to adapt, in real time, and that's simply not possible if you're looking at a tuner.

(Firesuit on!)

[Frank Freniere]

I'll start off with saying that I am really against this sort of thing (looking at a tuner to see if you're playing in tune). As a sideman, we're supposed to be in tune with the band, and I don't think there's any better way to do that than listening to the band and utilizing your ears and your brain to find the tonal center of the music. It's important to realize that the tonal center may vary with different players or singers, songs that are in different keys, and the generalized changes that may take place in normal playing, and that's the problem if you're in sync with a tuner, and not with the musicians around you! Of course, if you're in a band with keyboards, the tonal center will likely be more rigid than it is if there are only string instruments. But I feel you must be able to adapt, in real time, and that's simply not possible if you're looking at a tuner.

(Firesuit on!)

Donnie, I hear you and I agree with what you’re saying.

But every stinking time I hear myself on tape it’s brutal, including the intonation. And I have no recollection of sounding that bad while generally enjoying myself playing live with the band. So I’d be willing to try anything to improve the end result.

[Lee Rider]

I'll start off with saying that I am really against this sort of thing (looking at a tuner to see if you're playing in tune). As a sideman, we're supposed to be in tune with the band, and I don't think there's any better way to do that than listening to the band and utilizing your ears and your brain to find the tonal center of the music. It's important to realize that the tonal center may vary with different players or singers, songs that are in different keys, and the generalized changes that may take place in normal playing, and that's the problem if you're in sync with a tuner, and not with the musicians around you! Of course, if you're in a band with keyboards, the tonal center will likely be more rigid than it is if there are only string instruments. But I feel you must be able to adapt, in real time, and that's simply not possible if you're looking at a tuner.

(Firesuit on!)

All well and good it your ears work like they are supposed to. I only use the Soundcorset tuner app in when I practice to get my bar position figured out. Only playing duets (ala Greg Liesz and Bill Frisell) these days anyway. Add in bass and drums and I lose the marginal ability that I have to intonenate on the fly.

[Jim Fogarty]

I'm not saying I'm any more in tune than anyone, but the A #1 thing that has helped me is practicing and playing to a drone. The ones I use are Cello drones (in all 12 keys) that are on YouTube:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-Dy ... vnoZP4u8Xk

Playing scales and especially harmonized scales over a long, deep and accurate tone really helps your ear, brain and fingers really lock in.

I use them with my steel, dobro and slide guitar students and it's helped them noticeably.

Just FYI.

[Dan Kelly]

I will second the Cello Drone Tone Tool. Man, that has helped me on PSG and voice. I just take a couple of keys every couple of days for about 10 minutes. For me, at least, it has been very helpful.

https://www.dronetonetool.com/

[Lee Rider]

I will second the Cello Drone Tone Tool. Man, that has helped me on PSG and voice. I just take a couple of keys every couple of days for about 10 minutes. For me, at least, it has been very helpful.

https://www.dronetonetool.com/

I use this also, helps with my intonation somewhat. I also use the Functional Ear Trainer app on my phone. Anything to help these old, tired and damaged ears.

[Bill Terry]

I'll jump on board with what Donny posted. I definitely use a tuner, doesn't everybody use one of some flavor? But I've never tried to watch a tuner while I'm playing, mainly because I don't keep it inline after the initial tune-up, it's setting on my amp or somewhere handy. Even if it was, I'm not sure I could do it, I'm usually kinda busy trying to find the key or figure out where that crazy change is or something else (I do a LOT of sub gigs, and if you do, YKWIM )

I'm blessed to own an old P/P that stays in tune very well (that's obviously fodder for a different post) so I can usually trust that my guitar is in tune, and I've been told by folks that hire me that I 'play in tune', I've worked hard at it. But when I'm in the middle of a song, and something is rubbing somewhere, and I KNOW something/someone is out of tune, I try to 'get in tune' with bar adjustment, or even a tiny slant if necessary. All that is based on listening to the band, and finding that 'tonal center' that Donny mentions. I think it may have been Paul Franklin (I could be wrong) that I first heard use that term, but it's spot on if you ask me.

As I've gotten older, I've definitely lost some hearing, especially in the upper range, but fortunately, my perception of pitch seems to still be ok. I've heard of other folks who say that their hearing loss has also affected pitch/interval recognition. If that's the case, I could see the use of a tuning 'monitor', but honestly, if I get to that point, I think my playing out days may be done.

[Fred Treece]

It’s not about using the tuner in line as a guide on a gig, for me anyway. I couldn’t do that and I wouldn’t want to. But practicing with it helps. Of course you can’t keep your eye on it all the time. That would defeat the purpose of the exercise, which is to train the ear to know when you are in tune. Play to tracks or drone tone a little, have a look at the tuner, play a little more, glance over, lather rinse repeat. Very rarely a straight up needle for me

Was it Buddy Emmons that used to practice in the dark? Then he’d hit the light switch on once every so often and check out his bar position.

[David Wren]

What Donnie said.

I can remember times looking at my bar, visually sharp... but in tune with the fiddle player at the time.

When you can't hear your own signal... time to renegotiate band relations
I've always viewed the "fret" markers as kind of a suggestion.... the steel has to be played by ear to be in tune.
Just my $00.02.

That said, I would be the last person on this forum to dis anything Mr. Palenscar says.

[Bill Terry]

I've always viewed the "fret" markers as kind of a suggestion.... the steel has to be played by ear to be in tune.
Just my $00.02.

yep..

That said, I would be the last person on this forum to dis anything Mr. Palenscar says.

Also yep..

[Jim Palenscar]

Reece said "I let my eyes start the move and my ears finish it." Perfect as far as I'm concerned. That being said, after all this time playing I'm not too proud to ask for help and if it takes using a tuner in my line of sight- especially with a loud band where the lead player lives with distortion- when "the tonal center" is a bit up for grabs- I will do pretty much whatever I feel helps me make the band sound better. I consider that to be my primary job.

[Bill Terry]

...when "the tonal center" is a bit up for grabs...

Yeah, that's a good point. I've played with bands where that was kind of a moving target.. i.e. the old 'Who do I play in tune with?' question.