Some thoughts from a non-pedal steel player about pedal steel guitars

[Gary Meixner]

As a non-pedal steel player, I visit the Steel Guitar Forum regularly. I enjoy reading the posts from my fellow forum members and almost always scroll through the classified section looking for my next obsession.

I have built many of my own non-pedal steel guitars, and own, or have owned several highly regarded models - Fenders, Gibsons, Clinesmith, Rickenbacher, National, etc. While I always appreciate a bargain, I have never begrudged a seller when purchasing one of these instruments at a fair market price. Rarely – at least on the forum – do I see a price, that is at all out of line.

Similarly, regarding pedal steel guitars, I am often surprised at the prices I see listed for most of the instruments being sold on the SGF. To my untrained eye, almost all seem like an incredible bargain. Certainly, there are some that aren’t up to the standards of pro instruments and some may need to repaired or require a proper setup.

In all my years playing non-peda steel guitar I have never sat down to play a pedal steel, so many of the fine points may be lost on me, but I do know a little bit about manufacturing. When I add up the cost of designing, engineering and prototyping: then the cost of materials, custom machining, fancy woods, electronics, assembly and adjustments I don’t know how they can be as inexpensive as they seem to be. This thinking might rile some but to me it is astounding.

Despite its niche status, and hardly benefitting from being mass produced, the pedal steel seems to be an incredibly affordable, modern marvel, for all that goes into making them. I am not likely to give up my Hawaiian guitars and take up the pedal steel, at least in this lifetime, but maybe someday if I get the opportunity I will give one a try.

Gary

[Bill McCloskey]

Well, Gary, never say never. I was also a dedicated lap steel player for decades and then at age 68 I bought my first pedal steel. 3 years later, and many pedal steels later, I could never go back and I wish I had started sooner.

[Rick Aiello]

I agree with Gary …

I have a ShoBud Pro III Custom …

In the immortal words of Ferris Bueller:

https://youtu.be/0wALArd2rvo?si=N-TwIao6GWgS5o91

[Nic Neufeld]

Just comparing lap steel guitars to, say, regular electric guitars....the neck is a big part of why they are simpler (and thus cheaper) to make. You don't have to worry about playability, really...neck profile, fretwork, truss rods, none of that is really necessary. As for why the vintage laps don't command "vintage guitar" prices, well that's just our bit of luck because the styles of music these are best for are not terribly popular.

The instrument that strikes me as the most "underpriced" in my experience is the sitar / surbahar. Even beginner models are highly intricate in decoration, and that is a complex instrument to build, for sure. But even the best makers (Kanai Lal, Hiren Roy, Rikhi Ram) are in kind of humble shops in India and the prices do not compare to what high end Western classical instruments command.

On pedals, I acquired a Fender 400 and have tried to learn a bit of Basil's A7 copedent but I need to practice more. It's tricky for sure, four limbs going at once is a bit of a challenge for me (never was a drummer!).

[Jack Hanson]

Gary, you CAN do it! I never even saw (aside from in photographs) a lap steel until after I had been playing the pedal steel for several years. On a trip to Hawaii in the early- to mid-eighties, I stumbled into a little guitar store in Oahu (Island Guitars), and purchased a Bakelite and a Weissenborn on a whim, and had them both shipped to my home in Minnesota. For me, the pedal steel was exponentially easier to learn how to play than the Ric. And the long-scale Weiss -- whoa Nellie! But I'm so glad that I stuck with it. Nowadays, I seldom sit down behind my trusty old D-10 Emmons.

[Gary Meixner]

Hey Rick and others,

I appreciate the Ferris Bueller reference - he is a young man who is wise beyond his years.

I also appreciate the encourage to remain open to the idea of giving pedal steel a try. I am not likely to purchase one anytime soon but I really do marvel at how refined and complex the instruments are: and yet, for not a ton of money I could own a world class instrument same as used by the top players in the field.

My playing is heading in a different direction. After being convinced for years that I needed dual necks and eight strings to play the music I wanted, I have found myself going back to where I started, playing mostly six string lap guitars in the most basic tunings. In fact, I am waiting on a six-string lap steel I ordered months ago from Todd Clinesmith that will probably be played in A tuning. I am still fairly committed to six string C6, and find its utility unmatched for a wide variety of styles. It is really a beautiful tuning.

There are a lot of younger musicians in my area who are into country music and honky-tonk and I often get asked to provide steel backup. I can usually approximate the sound they need and occasionally play some nice music, but sometimes when I am struggling on stage, I will consider another tuning or guitar.

The great news is that If I do decide a pedal steel is for me, I know where to go to purchase one and who to turn to for encouragement and advise.

Thanks,

Gary

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha, just adding my 2¢...

In the end, demographics rule everything.

Hawaiian Steel guitar, like the accordion, used to be extremely popular instruments in their heyday. When you said "electric guitar", people really meant steel guitar because the Rickenbacher Frypan was the first mass produced Electric Guitar in the early 30's. This is long forgotten because all those people back then have long since passed.

Rock n' Roll took over in the 1950's, and the Telecaster, Stratocaster, and Les Paul took rose to prominence. Then "electric guitar" took on the meaning of playing strats, teles, les pauls, and all their various incarnations. That's when all the steel guitars started faded from prominence in popular music. Coincidentally, 1955 was the year ShoBud started to mass produce pedal steels.

The manner in which we all now ubiquitously refer to "Playing Guitar", used to be referred to as playing "Spanish Style Guitar", which can be noted in the naming of the Gibson ES-335. "ES" stood for "Electric Spanish".

All that said, there has been a lot of term switching and definition changing of named instruments over the years, and here we are in 2025.

To me, it's kinda silly to refer to a guitar as "non pedal steel". It's a steel guitar. Steel guitar is the general catch all term. Pedal Steel is a type of steel guitar. But I'm just a guy from Hawai'i, and we'll always be outvoted due to demographics anyways. Doug Jernigan calls it "Straight Steel" when there are no pedals. Seems like a good term to me as well, as I use it.

I certainly believe that the sound of steel guitar, in any of its incarnations, still has that magic to this very day. The human ear loves it and is attracted to it. Audiences know it, even if they don't know they know it.

Live music these days is so rare, and it's rarer still to hear a steel guitar live. People always walk up to me at gigs and ask me what it is with childlike curiosity.

At this point, when I observe steel players as they age, they tend to lose their faculties. It becomes harder to grip the bar as age and arthritis sets in. Their necks start to hurt, their backs start to hurt. Sometimes just gripping a bar can be a challenge physically.

So I look at that, and then I ask myself. "Self. Do you want to pay $10,000 for ShoBud, Mullen, Emmons, etc and then haul an 80lb instrument case everywhere? And then setup/breakdown takes 10-15 minutes?" That sounds like a whole lotta "NOPE" to me.

If old timers have a hard time grabbing a bar as they age, they CERTAINLY can't haul a 60-80lb instrument case around. Load it in/out of a car or truck. Nah. That's not for me.

Also, where are you gonna find a good Pedal Steel mechanic these days? You can't even find a decent piano tuner in most towns/cities!

Complex machines have complex problems. Simple machines have simple problems. You can't get simpler than a straight steel guitar.

I'll stick with my Frypans and Bakelites. Easy to travel with. I can easily hop a flight, go home, and sit in on gigs in Waikiki.

Jerry Byrd managed to play at a high level into his 80's. That's the direction I wanna head in.

Kayton Roberts could still sound country on his steel. I guarantee that 99.9% of listeners cannot tell the difference between steel and pedal steel. Probably 50% of musicians can't even tell the difference.

With guys like Luke Cyrus Goetze sounding great on his Duesenberg with palm levers, I really don't have any desire to mess with PSG. At. All. Luke is showing it's possible to get the quintessential PSG sound with palm levers. Lighter, cheaper, and easy to maintain. Yes, that's for me.

I love the sound of Pedal Steel. It's a beautiful sound. It's just that they're so expensive, heavy, and a pain in the neck to maintain. Then you have to live in a city where there is work for Pedal Steel.

I had an Emmons student model PSG that I bought from Tommy Hannum. I traded it to my buddy in Texas for a telecaster and a deluxe reverb. lol.

I may get another PSG someday, but I know that it will live in my house, taking up space. I'll likely never gig with it. I have enough gear to carry. lol.

At the end of the day, music is to enjoy, and I'm cutting out anything that diminishes that enjoyment.

Just my 2¢.

Enjoy!

[Rick Aiello]

One of the best Hawaiian style players I’ve ever seen … Mike Scott from Canada …
played a A25 frypan and a Harlan Bros. Multicord •

I asked him once why he dragged that Muticord around when he was so apt on the frypan (man, he could play in the style of Dick McIntire) … he said something to the effect …

“It’s just so fun … “


* He did equip it with a horseshoe pickup …

[Michael Kiese]

One of the best Hawaiian style players I’ve ever seen … Mike Scott from Canada …
played a A25 frypan and a Harlan Bros. Multicord •

I asked him once why he dragged that Muticord around when he was so apt on the frypan (man, he could play in the style of Dick McIntire) … he said something to the effect …

“It’s just so fun … “


* He did equip it with a horseshoe pickup …

yeah, but wasn't he also really wealthy? lol.

I'd play an 80lb instrument too if paying a roadie wasn't an issue.

[Michael Kiese]

One of the best Hawaiian style players I’ve ever seen … Mike Scott from Canada …
played a A25 frypan and a Harlan Bros. Multicord •

I asked him once why he dragged that Muticord around when he was so apt on the frypan (man, he could play in the style of Dick McIntire) … he said something to the effect …

“It’s just so fun … “


* He did equip it with a horseshoe pickup …

yeah, but wasn't he also really wealthy? lol.

I'd play PSG too if paying a roadie wasn't an issue.

I think all the wrecking crew players like Tommy Tedesco and Carol Kaye all paid for Cartage. They'd transport all their amps and guitars to their studio dates. Sounds like heaven. lol.

[Rick Aiello]

I don’t recall Mike S. as being particularly well off ???

He was in a Michael J Fox movie playing steel in a Tiki bar … “Life with Mikey”

Here’s his old website …. https://www.hawaiianaires.com/About.html

Hal Smith, Mike Scott, Ken & Ian Ufton and Jack Montgomery were all great players in that style …. They made going to Joliet Conventions so fun

[Michael Kiese]

I don’t recall Mike S. as being particularly well off ???

He was in a Michael J Fox movie playing steel in a Tiki bar … “Life with Mikey”

Here’s his old website …. https://www.hawaiianaires.com/About.html

Hal Smith, Mike Scott, Ken & Ian Ufton and Jack Montgomery were all great players in that style …. They made going to Joliet Conventions so fun

I recall Uncle Bobby telling me about a Mike Scott that played on the Maple Record "Sweet Sweet Steel Guitar" Series. That same Mike Scott was apparently very wealthy. But it's all anecdotal stories.

[Rick Aiello]

Guess we should have been sending our Friday night Steakhouse bills to him , instead of Wally P.

IMG_2479.jpeg

[Levi Gemmell]

I recall Uncle Bobby telling me about a Mike Scott that played on the Maple Record "Sweet Sweet Steel Guitar" Series. That same Mike Scott was apparently very wealthy. But it's all anecdotal stories.

Michael, that is the same Mike Scott indeed. The aforementioned Ken Ufton also had a couple of records on Maple. It's nice to think about those gentlemen, and George Lake as well!

Back on topic, I've been sliding slowly into the world of pedal steel over the past couple of years - first listening to more and more of it, and then beginning to think about what it can do for me as a straight steel player. The financial outlay just to get one is considerable, but like the OP I consistently feel that they are reasonably priced for what they are and add to the palette of sounds. For me, it's just another facet of "steel guitar," as Michael says, worthy of exploration if you're comfortable with the expenditure.

Pedal steel is experiencing a breath of fresh air all over the place, and I seem to hear it, or approximations of its sound, all over indie music and even pop music. Maybe it's just the algorithm feeding me, but I think we also have an affinity for "Americana" styles in New Zealand. Pedal steels are scarce here, but I am seeing more lap steel players appearing in my cohort, which is a cause for celebration.

[Rick Aiello]

“ … Ken Ufton also had a couple of records on Maple. It's nice to think about those gentlemen, and George Lake as well!“

I made Ken a pickup as a gift for his pedal steel before he passed … handed it off to Ian in Joliet to sneak it across the boarder

[Michael Kiese]

There is another Michael Scott from Scotland, or the UK... He donated his entire record collection and steel collection to the Hawaii State Archives.

The Hawaii State Archives is slowly but surely digitizing all those records for posterity and will make them available online for free.

I told the curator to please check to see if he has the "Sweet Sweet" series, and to front load that entire series because it's among the rarest.

Uncle Bobby told me that the volume that featured Pua Almeida had some particularly beautiful tracks.

[Rick Aiello]

Here’s his Maple record :

https://youtu.be/R0IeepNA5R4?si=Y7NXYsyBqadnA5iE

https://youtu.be/f76HtWnUtl4?si=HVu2EMylTkr54sK0

[Mike Neer]

There is another Michael Scott from Scotland, or the UK... He donated his entire record collection and steel collection to the Hawaii State Archives.

The Hawaii State Archives is slowly but surely digitizing all those records for posterity and will make them available online for free.

I told the curator to please check to see if he has the "Sweet Sweet" series, and to front load that entire series because it's among the rarest.

Uncle Bobby told me that the volume that featured Pua Almeida had some particularly beautiful tracks.

I believe it’s the same Mike Scott (Brit expat). About 20 years ago I bought about 150 78s from his collection (his doubles). We spent about 90 min on the phone while he read the list to me. Lol
I also met him years ago when we played a Joseph Kekuku celebration here in NJ.

[Michael Kiese]

I believe it’s the same Mike Scott (Brit expat). About 20 years ago I bought about 150 78s from his collection (his doubles). We spent about 90 min on the phone while he read the list to me. Lol
I also met him years ago when we played a Joseph Kekuku celebration here in NJ.

How many Hawaiian steel playing Michael Scotts can there be after all, right? lol.

I had a nice long phone conversation with Adam Jansen, the director of the Hawaii State Archives. When I explained the Mike Scott situation, Adam said it was a different Michael Scott's collection. But we could have been talking past one another because neither of us had all the info. It may very well be the same Mike Scott.

Btw, I just recently put together that Joseph Kekuku is buried in Dover, NJ, and that you're also a NJ resident. I used to wonder how the Black Gospel churches were introduced to the steel. Makes sense now that I know Joseph is buried in NJ.

It seems like the northern black churches are the center of the sacred steel world. I know Robert Randolph grew up in New Jersey, and that the Campbell brothers are from New York.

Must have been Joseph himself who brought the steel to that side of the country.

[Michael Kiese]

Michael, that is the same Mike Scott indeed. The aforementioned Ken Ufton also had a couple of records on Maple. It's nice to think about those gentlemen, and George Lake as well!

Back on topic, I've been sliding slowly into the world of pedal steel over the past couple of years - first listening to more and more of it, and then beginning to think about what it can do for me as a straight steel player. The financial outlay just to get one is considerable, but like the OP I consistently feel that they are reasonably priced for what they are and add to the palette of sounds. For me, it's just another facet of "steel guitar," as Michael says, worthy of exploration if you're comfortable with the expenditure.

Pedal steel is experiencing a breath of fresh air all over the place, and I seem to hear it, or approximations of its sound, all over indie music and even pop music. Maybe it's just the algorithm feeding me, but I think we also have an affinity for "Americana" styles in New Zealand. Pedal steels are scarce here, but I am seeing more lap steel players appearing in my cohort, which is a cause for celebration.

Aloha Levi,

Believe me, I LOVE the sound of Pedal Steel, I've gotten to sit at the feet of Paul Franklin at the Station Inn with the Time Jumpers. He can make that PSG cry.

I just recently had a talk with Uncle Bobby, and we were talking about Jerry Byrd.

He paraphrased Jerry's words: "You can take a room of 20 Pedal Steel Guitar players, teach 'em a lick, and they'll all sound EXACTLY the same. But if you take a room of 20 Steel players and teach 'em a lick, you'll get 20 unique interpretations of that same lick."

Kinda wise insight there from Jerry. You can really milk a forward slant going from the I to IV chord on straight steel. But when you press the AB pedals on a PSG to get the same change, it happens so fast. It makes everyone sound the same.

One more thing that I noticed from the few PSG players I met in real life, and the tons of YouTube videos of PSG players....for most of them, their slant game is almost non-existent.

The old timers who switched over to PSG all started on straight steel, so they knew their slants. Lots of guys who start on PSG don't know their slants. They really rely on the mechanism to do everything for them.

It's just an observation. Not a qualitative good or bad call.

It's kind of like the difference between Manual Transmission and Automatic Transmission in cars. People who don't know how to drive manual don't really know what they're missing. I'm sure many drivers don't even care. Maybe it's the same way with Straight Steel and PSG.

Just a thought.

[Stanislav Paskalev]

Every time I see a video of a pedal steel player they play with some foot long barbell they slide on the strings. No wonder they don't wanna do slants, that thing is unwieldy

Jokes aside, and to Michael's point - that's kind of expected, PSGs are much more uniform.

Pedal steel guitars have a typical form and shape. Lap steels come in all shapes and sizes.
PSGs have a pretty much standard copedent. Everyone tunes their laps according to taste.
There's more in quantity and more developed pedagogy for PSG - textbooks, instructors and so on. Straight steel players mostly learn on their own after learning guitar.

[Rick Aiello]

The bottom line for me … the ability to raise and lower any string’s pitch at will … is very fun …

Whether this is achieved by sliding, bending, slants, palm levers, knee levers or foot pedals … the end result:

Fun …

[Barney Roach]

I just listened to this very informative PODCAST from a 30 year old player-
and one of his thoughts was that he feels it may be EASIER to play a pedal
steel guitar than a LAP STEEL- and it has only been up a couple of days now:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im9Jx_ABeUs

[Michael Kiese]

The bottom line for me … the ability to raise and lower any string’s pitch at will … is very fun …

Whether this is achieved by sliding, bending, slants, palm levers, knee levers or foot pedals … the end result:

Fun …

Oh for sure, both are fun. It’s just that there is a much larger can of worms with PSG.

You buy a used 60 year old ShoBud or Emmons, and they come with their issues and the previous players copedent.

You buy a new pro quality Mullen or Emmons, and it’ll cost $10,000 and weigh 80lbs in the case, and it takes 20 mins to set up and tear down. Just a pain to take out of the house and perform with.

One thing I noticed with Paul Franklin, having the chance to sit at his feet maybe about 10 times, is that he’s CONSTANTLY adjusting tuning. He has a socket screwdriver living on the gap between the 2 necks. He adjusts tuning between sets and during songs.

It just looks like a huge pain to me. Kayton Roberts can trick my ear to believing I’m hearing PSG, and so can good palm lever players like Luke Cyrus Goetze.

In the end, I completely agree that it’s ALL fun and ALL beautiful. I just don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze personally for PSG. Kinda like how college is too expensive to justify its real world benefits for most people.

[Michael Kiese]

Every time I see a video of a pedal steel player they play with some foot long barbell they slide on the strings. No wonder they don't wanna do slants, that thing is unwieldy

Jokes aside, and to Michael's point - that's kind of expected, PSGs are much more uniform.

Pedal steel guitars have a typical form and shape. Lap steels come in all shapes and sizes.
PSGs have a pretty much standard copedent. Everyone tunes their laps according to taste.
There's more in quantity and more developed pedagogy for PSG - textbooks, instructors and so on. Straight steel players mostly learn on their own after learning guitar.

Aloha Stanislav,

For the most part you've got the right notion, but there are a few things that I'd like to address for the sake of posterity, and to clear up confusion or misunderstanding.

If you’d be kind enough to allow me to push back a bit, copedents are NOT standardized, and PSGs are NOT uniform.

Concerning copedents, when it comes to the student model PSGs, with 3 pedals and a knee lever or two, those are basic changes that can be considered standardized for student models.

When you purchase a brand new D10 PSG like a Mullen or an Emmons, they're making them to order and will put in any copedent that the player wants.

There are common PSG changes, but what each knee lever or pedal does is NOT standardized. That's one of the issues when purchasing a used 60 year old PSG, you have to deal with learning the previous player's copedent. I once played an old ShoBud PSG and the AB pedals were switched. lol. I guess that's how the previous guy liked it. Then you have to deal the joys of maintaining a 60 year old instrument. They have mechanical issues, cabinet drop, etc. It's a can of worms.

If you want to change the copedent of a used PSG, good luck finding a PSG mechanic. Most likely it will be yourself. When you tinker too much as a mechanic and you have to constantly maintain an old PSG, or work on modifying it, that is time sacrificed from playing and learning the instrument, and just plain musical enjoyment.

Also, Paul Franklin has his own unique copedent with uncommon changes, and his copedant evolved over the years. He's lucky that he had a Dad that was a fine machinist and fabricator. Some people swear by Paul's Copedent, others don't like it and do their own thing.

Finally when it comes to "uniformity" of PSG, you have the Push/Pull camp and the All-Pull camp. In the end, PSG is just a huge can of worms. There's nothing that's standardized or uniform in the PSG world. The world of PSG can be a very territorial world because each camp thinks their way is the best. You go one way, then the guys in the other camp want to give you buyer's remorse because you didn't go their way. It's a pain. lol.

While you're correct that there are many tunings in Lap steel, straight steel players pick tunings based upon the genre of music they want to play. We just pick the tunings that make our music easiest for us to play. There's nothing more Hawaiian than not having to work any harder than you absolutely need to. lol.

There are common tunings that can be considered "universal tunings" because they are the most used. C6 is probably the most universal steel tuning because there's even a C6 neck on the PSG.

C6 and A6 are pretty common tunings (they're the same tuning, just transposed). You can use them for Hawaiian, Western Swing, Jazz, and Pop music. They're very flexible tunings that allow you to play all the chords you'd need. It's up to the player to make the genre sound appropriate.

Then you get into the Dobro and Blues slide world where they have open tunings and major triads, of which many of those tunings actually started out on Hawaiian Steel.

The Dominant tunings (E9, E13, B11, A7, etc) are for people with double or triple neck guitars. They're the secondary neck, not the primary neck. You can get into the weeds with the Dominant tunings, but that said, if you live on dominant tunings, you're sticking to a very specific era of songwriting, where most of the chords are dominant chords, and there are few or no minor 7s, major 7s, half dim, etc. That's all the music from the 30's through the 50's.

All the minor 7 tunings are extremely rare. You're getting into 1920's and earlier Hawaiian tunings at that point. Those are the tunings that a young Jerry Byrd figured out from just listening over and over and ear transcription. If you look up Sol Ho'opi'i or Dick McIntire, that's the era of music that would be indicative of those minor tunings.

Steel guitar is a Hawaiian instrument. It's a gift from the Hawaiian culture. It's amazing that the whites and the blacks on the US mainland heard the Hawaiians and were captivated and inspired by that Hawaiian steel sound, that they picked up steel themselves and made it their own. The whites took it and made it country, the blacks took it and made blues and gospel. Now the sound of steel is known worldwide and it started on a small group of islands in the Pacific Ocean. Pretty amazing stuff.

So in summary, the entire world of steel guitar itself is a can of worms because nothing is standard. There are many different applications of Steel Guitar. In my opinion, PSG is a bigger can of worms than straight steel. And PSGs are heavier, cumbersome, and very expensive which is why I choose to not go that route after dipping my toes in those PSG waters.

In the end, there are not very many Steel Players out there in the world, and all steel music is beautiful and valid. Steel music is the sound of the players soul because it's so evocative and vocal like. You can hear the emotion of any decent steel player and it's so pure, simple, and direct.

It makes me happy to know that the instrument that Hawaiians creates a sound that the whole world still recognizes and loves. That's something to be grateful for.

All that matters is that we enjoy and have fun! Pick your can of worms and dive in!

Enjoy!