Alternate picking

[Rich Ertelt]

I'm getting to the point where I'm working on some fast, single note lines, and I have a question on Alternate picking. Background - when I studied jazz guitar, my teacher preached true alt picking. If the pick went down, the next note, regardless of string or position, was up. Always DUDU. I don't do that exclusively but when I want fast lines on guitar, I do it and don't have to think about right hand.

On pedal steel, I'm working on a lick that has a repeating 3 note part on strings 9,8,7.
If I was going to do true alternate, it would be T-F-T, F-T-F, T-F-T, F-T-F (I'm more inclined to use Index than middle for something like this, but it could be either). It feels clumsy hitting the low note with the index, but that may just be a "getting used to it" thing.
The other would be T-F-T over and over.

Also, doing true alternate can get a little backwards as I go up strings, as opposed to how I would normally play a lick I may play at the end of the run . But again, it may just be a "getting used to it" thing, like I found with guitar.

Of course, I could do it T-I-M but I'm thinking it should really be just 2 fingers.

So, do you guys do fast lines as true alternate picking, or is it more like the 2nd example?

And yes, I know it will be a matter of sitting down and just doing it slow over and over, I just want to make sure I'm practicing/learning the right thing here.

[Robert Miller]

Right hand standard guitar flatpicking and right hand steel technique are a little bit chalk and cheese, but there's some insight to be had in your example.

Before I say anything else I have to disclose that I think strict alternate picking on standard guitar is dogma. It can lead to some very tic tac articulation and phrasing, because, in some cases you're expending a lot of energy to re-direct a more "natural" motion because you're following "the rules."

Good examples of the counter position:

Charlie Christian (All downstrokes, for the most part)

Django Reinhardt or Bireli Lagrene (Same direction rest strokes between strings)

Frank Gambale (Similar to Reinhardt on scalar lines without the rest strokes)

It will work for your 3 notes per string example (My index finger is much shorter than the middle, so, working on the same string with quick lines pretty much forces it.), but from string to string, you might be even quicker approaching it like a Gypsy jazz guy on the string hop (T/M/T-T/M/T-T/M/T).

I'd try both. I use the economy approach a lot and, totally a taste preference, but it's more fluid to my ears. Two notes per string, following the same flow, turns out to be alternate by default but not because you're forcing it to be so, and combinations of the two fit pretty nicely.

[Rich Ertelt]

Right hand standard guitar flatpicking and right hand steel technique are a little bit chalk and cheese, but there's some insight to be had in your example.

Before I say anything else I have to disclose that I think strict alternate picking on standard guitar is dogma. It can lead to some very tic tac articulation and phrasing, because, in some cases you're expending a lot of energy to re-direct a more "natural" motion because you're following "the rules."

Good examples of the counter position:

Yea, I understand there are differences in the instruments. I'm more looking for I guess a philosophical thing - how do you think through this?

I have a good grasp of different picking techniques on guitar. For example, When I play a Beach Boys song, it doesn't sound right unless it's all downstokes. I understand and use economy picking. I don't have an issue with flow using alternate picking. I do use them for different things at different times. But I have found with straight alternate picking on guitar, I can get a really nice flow, because I don't have to think about the right hand, or where I'm going, Fast 2 beat country, or swing/blues, or even straight ahead jazz stuff.

Which lead me to the question. I'm doing this lick on 3 strings, so it doesn't work out evenly on the right hand. I'm finding it a little clumsy to do true alternate picking, cause I'm not used to it and going from thumb on the low string to finger on low the next time is odd. But doing tft over and over feels like it gets into a thing where you have to think to much about the right hand, because as I go out of the lick, is the next note thumb? Or index? I think it need to happen automatically, which is how it works for me on guitar. Thus the question.

I did a lot of searching before I asked, and almost everything I found on the subject was 2 strings (at a time) so the natural thing would be TFTF because the math works out. 3 strings it doesn't. I'm looking at putting a bunch of work in, want to make sure I'm not going down a blind alley.

[Tucker Jackson]

My take:

Crosspicking is great --until you try to play a run where it doesn't make sense.

Repeating on 9-8-7 is an easy 3-finger roll situation. There's no shame in it and no need to force it into an unnatural, orthodox crosspicking situation.

The principle you're looking for is: do whatever lays the best. That will change, based on the run you're looking at, what strings you just came from, and where you're going next. Don't overthink it, just let your fingers do the walking.

[Robert Miller]

One of the reasons I mentioned the economy approach (counterintuitive, I realize) is that it puts your hand in the same position for the start of each string. To me, at least, it reduces the muscle memory stutter I get starting each climb from an opposing position. It took awhile to believe it because initially it's a built in phrasing stutter until you can relax into the flow of it. Then, starting ascending string jumps (not skipping, that's a whole added twist) always on the thumb, and descending all on the middle finger, gets at that consistency and habitual comfort I think you're looking for. The hand position is the same every time you land.

On the flip side, it has a particular phrasing to it (Like the Gypsy Jazz folks vs Pat Martino).

I still contend it's a try both situation at least until some of the stone you're chiseling away on each starts to reveal a shadow of the sculpture. Then you can take the path you like, at least knowing why you took the path you did.

I spent almost a year in the mid nineties listening, watching and trying to duplicate what Jeff Newman was teaching about picking and blocking. It got worse and worse. I finally figured out my hands were so differently built than his, that It was like doing contortions trying to keep the hand neutral and reach the string by bending at the first knuckle.

I'm not giving you much to go on, but I was hoping to give you an alternative to a strictly "thou shalt" approach.

Whatever approach you're pursuing, I wouldn't completely abandon it until you've spent some serious woodshed time with it. Every time I tweak something like that, everything else falls apart for three months, until things take root, and the the third week or so seems like I'm losing ground. The improvement only happens while you're struggling.

[Fred Treece]

Forward and backward 3-finger rolls are an essential for me, especially when string skipping. Like Tucker said, why fight the easiest thing? There is always a way to get back into a T-F pattern, which I do as much as possible because it’s easier to stay in time if you can thumb pick on downbeats and fingerpick on the ups.

The scale run on pedal steel strings 9-8-7 can be done on one string on guitar, so of course alternate picking is the best and easiest approach. PSG is a different instrument in many ways, and guitar technique is often not the best approach.

T-F-T, T-F-T for a repeating 9-8-7 lick makes no sense to me unless there is a rest between the two T’s. T-T-F, T-T-F would be better than that, but if you are anti-rest-stroke then that’s out, too. Try the T-I-M roll. It takes a little practice to keep it in time, keep the attack even, and pick block so the notes don’t all run together.

[Dale Rottacker]

As my fingers and opposed thumbs are opposed to "speed picking" I'm reading this post with interest. Like Robert, and maybe even more so, my hand did not want to conform to Jeffs rather dogmatic positional approach. Which caused me to consider quitting altogether or find an approach that worked for me. That said, my approach for whatever reason never reached the level I desired, and at 69 and arthritic have to wonder how much improvement can still be made, and how much practice can I put in to attain that improvement. Yes, the struggle is real.

[Dave Grafe]

Lots of insight and advice here. I spend a lot of practice time on enabling my thumb and three fingers to use multiple patterns on the fly, but anyrhing really quick is rooted in pick blocking a basic thumb-and'-one pattern. I put daily practice time into smoothly crossing T+1 going up and down, generally thumb and index but occasionally thumb and middle finger as needed to set up an ensuing pattern. My current E9 exercise is the piano part to King Harvest's "Dancing in the Moonlight" almost all of it happening in rapid succession on frets 11 & 13. I'll let you know when the intro no longer kicks my butt.

[Rich Ertelt]

Thanks, folks, good info.

Yea, I can do the three finger thing. T-F-T over and over works too.

I'm just experimenting with some ideas. As I was saying on guitar, once I got true alternate picking down, it was fast, intuitive, and smooth. I used other picking techniques, depending on what I wanted, but alt really worked for fast stuff. But that idea doesn't seem to translate to the steel.

Just trying to make sure I create the best habits. I'm starting to explore longer single note lines. I've had to unlearn habits in the past, lol. Twice as much work.

[Fred Treece]

There is a principle at work in this simple lick. If you slow it down, and I mean stupid ridiculous slow, watch what your thumb is doing in a T-F-T pattern on strings 9-8-7. It’s working pretty hard, right? The reason you can do it is that it is a pretty strong muscle doing the work. The question is, should you do it? If it becomes a habit at moderate tempo, will your muscle memory kick in at higher tempo and pass the speed test? What if you want to hit string 10 after one of the sequences?

I’m just not a big fan of double-thumbing, especially string-skipping backwards. Yes, I can do it, but I don’t. Not in fingerpicking guitar either. I have 3 fingers in addition to a thumb, so I use them.

Buddy Emmons said to develop picking hand skills that keep you from running out of fingers. I really like that one.