Dongles!

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 24 Jan 2001 8:18 am

I hate these things! If you don't know what I'm talking about, they're those confounded 'security locks' that prevent proprietary software from being used on other computers (pirated). They are the M/F DB-25 connectors that look like the familiar null-modem adapters and plug into your parallel port on the back of your computer.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm using licensed software, but these damned things are in the way! I currently use 6 different software packages that each come with dongles, and by the time I get them all on there in series - WITH the derned printer cable attached at the end - the thing sticks out ~7 inches. I h ave to pull the computer out from the wall just to make it fit. I just about need to rig a cantilever off the back of the PC with a block-and-tackle to hoist the whole thing up to level! And, of course, they can't go in just any orde - you have to figure out by trial and error what works and what doesn't.

With all this encryption/security technology that is coming of age, you'd think we could figure out some more 'elegant' way to solve the software pirating issue without resorting to a sledgehammer approach.

And another thing - I've mentioned this before, but why can't we develop a stapler that actually can staple more than 4 pages together at once.

Thank-you.

SF

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 24 Jan 2001 5:02 pm

Steve, what kind of s/w are you using that requires that?? I've never heard of it?? I use Office 2K and there's nothing like that with it?????

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 24 Jan 2001 5:07 pm

I didn't really read your post too carefully but you're trying to staple your 7" dingle to a what, now?

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 24 Jan 2001 6:11 pm

...but you're trying to staple your 7" dingle to a what, now?

AND PROUD OF IT!

Actually, Jack, these are some pretty specialized things. For example:

1) a package for digital image analysis,
2) three separate programs for various types of graphical analyses of x-ray diffraction data,
3) one for general scientific and technical graphics.

These are things that are sort of specific to certain types of instrumental analyses. Most packages are in the ~$5000 range and target a relatively small audience unlike word processing, spreadsheet, or other business-type apps. So I understand the need to protect their product, but holy geez, it's really a bit much with these 'locks' on there...

Shoot, if I wanted to steal the software, I'd just get me a breakout box and wire up a dongle myself...well, you know what I mean....

Just venting.....

[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 24 January 2001 at 06:12 PM.]

Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 24 Jan 2001 11:50 pm

Steve,
You could go to a computer store, and buy yourself a flatcable - as short as possible - with one male and one female DB25-plug on it. That way you could at least get the dongles away from the back of the PC where they are REALLY a pain ! It's not a solution to your problem, but it CAN make things a bit easier. Bear in mind though, that SOME dongles will malfunction if you use an extension cable on the parallel-port, but most will work nicely - give it a try.

And BTW you would probably have problems trying to simulate most of the dongles out there today - they're made out of a specially programmed PIC-chip instead of just a bunch of wires and a couple diodes like in the "old days" (3-5 years ago).

Ole

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 25 Jan 2001 8:58 am

And BTW you would probably have problems trying to simulate most of the dongles out there today - they're made out of a specially programmed PIC-chip instead of just a bunch of wires and a couple diodes like in the "old days" (3-5 years ago).

No sh!t? Interesting. Thanks Ole.

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 25 Jan 2001 9:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Actually, Jack, these are some pretty specialized things. For example:

1) a package for digital image analysis,
2) three separate programs for various types of graphical analyses of x-ray diffraction data,
3) one for general scientific and technical graphics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you can see, these are specilized software, sometimes costing as much as $10,000 t $100,00 a piece. Believe me, at that price one would be tempted to load it on more than one machine.

I worked with a programmer who designed these things and he told me tales that you wouldn't believe about how the end-usere would attempt to by-pass the dongles. Needless to say, It cain't be done nowadays.

The program software goes out and looks for a specific data located on the printer-port, compares it to what is imbedded in the start-up files. If it cain't find the data, It simply refuses to continue. (That's the short version of how it works)

In general, we don't have more than 2 of these devices installed on a single machine, I can see where 3 or more would cause a problem. As cheap as computers are now, Why not have dedicated machines for each software package ?

No way to beat the dongle,unless you happen to be the one who programed it. And then it's not an easy task.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 25 Jan 2001 10:49 am

Thanks for the education. I learn something new every day. I can see where the super high priced applications would want some protection. I've worked with some mainframe systems and don't recall anything like that with them and some of that s/w was lots of $$$, it must be just PC based applications.

Bob Shilling · Post by **Bob Shilling** » 26 Jan 2001 11:36 am

Steve,
I have a couple of dongles and I attach them to a cable from the port. It's easier to deal with. Also, if you want to load the software on more than one machine, it's easier to move the dongle from machine to machine, if you have it on a cable instead of behind the box. Of course with seven of them, all requiring a special order, it could get a bit dicey.

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Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 26 Jan 2001 10:55 pm

Remember....

Every time you add a dongle to the chain, you are effectively adding a few feet of cable to the printer. After a while, the printer and other things (software,ports,even video stuff) begins to get flaky.

I suspect that havin' 6 or 7 of these things in series would cause major problems.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 27 Jan 2001 12:21 pm

Well, it's been more of a major nuicance than a major problem thus far, Bill. I've taken to just keeping 2-3 on there at any one time, but then, with the printer cable on there as well, you're always undoing something and recondiguring something else - and then there is some kind of communicaiton conflict necessitating a re-boot. And then I run 2 printers through an A/B switchbox, so sometimes all kinds of whack-o signals are going out the back of that port.

I mean, it's manageable, but it just seems so unelegant and ridiculous. I'll bet something else will replace them in another couple of years (I hope!).[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 27 January 2001 at 12:22 PM.]

Rich Paton · Post by **Rich Paton** » 27 Jan 2001 1:26 pm

SCHMONGLES!
I bought a basic construction (electrical & telecom) estimating program that used one. It physically interfered with the other going-on in the I/O connector area, and since I own the program, see no harm or foul in making the little schnark go away.
So I asked a friend, who by all rights is an Arch High Maven with any PC hardware or software subject, problem, solution, or item, about hacking it.
His reply was "don't even bother wasting your time trying".
That was in 1991. It that factoid still true today?
BTW, it did have some sort of PLA or such chip inside it.[This message was edited by Rich Paton on 27 January 2001 at 01:28 PM.]

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 27 Jan 2001 11:04 pm

Rich...

It proberly was just a hardwire thing back in 91, but now is a comunation of hardwire and software nowadays.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> His reply was "don't even bother wasting your time trying".
That was in 1991. It that factoid still true today?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, still true...

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 28 Jan 2001 11:14 am

Shucks....

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Jan 2001 9:37 pm

I've seen people jump their port to blank panel that has the jack installed backwards. Then they chain the dongles together inside the box.

Dongles are unhackable. Don't waste your time trying. I've written code for them before. Even with the dongle manufacturers' development kit, they can't be hacked.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 31 Jan 2001 7:00 am

Certainly don't bet your dongles on it...

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 31 Jan 2001 7:23 am

If a 14-year-old geek can make his way into the Defense Department mainframe, what's to keep a kid like that from fondling your dongle?

Either we set him or one of his ilk to task, breaking into your dongle, or we hire them to protect the nation's defense from other bored brainy types.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 31 Jan 2001 8:58 am

As I recall, Herb, a 14-year old boy is just beginning to learn how a dongle works...

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Jan 2001 9:13 am

It's a lot easier to hack passwords than it is to hack hardware, Herb. In addition to storing key data, the dongle can store and run algorithms internally. It can do things like erase itself after just one failed access attempt, because no request from a valid client would ever fail. So brute force won't work unless you have an unlimited supply of similarly-encoded dongles.

That's just one example. Anyone who follows the manufacture's instructions when programming a dongle will have an uncrackable system. The only ones that can be cracked are those programmed by incompetent applications programmers.

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 31 Jan 2001 9:37 am

The only ones that can be cracked are those programmed by incompetent applications programmers.

I cracked one with a hammer once.

(not really).

I certainly understand the necessity for them. Primarily for niche products. But they are certainly a pain. Especially if you need more than one or two of them.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 2 Feb 2001 3:31 pm

Your chances of walking to the moon is much better than cracking a dongle.

Don't fight the dongle, just live with the Da## thing. (yes,I hate them too.)

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 3 Feb 2001 11:59 am

One more thought:

Bob Shilling said:

I have a couple of dongles and I attach them to a cable from the port. It's easier to deal with.

Any idea why I can't get them to work if I hooke them up throught the A/B switchbox? Should be the same difference as going out the port to a cable, eh?